Public Group
Active 3 days, 19 hours ago
Group Leadership
- Group Administrators
-
-
This group is open to all registered members of the site.
Frame differences?
- This topic has 23 replies, 7 voices, and was last updated 12 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
So, I’m hearing discussion regarding the differences in build quality between BOA and Kirkby frames. I’d be interested in learning more about how construction between these 2 facilities was carried out and why there may be one better then the other… if that is indeed the case. Of the bikes I have, I know several have the K stamping next to the 2 digit date… but how can one really identify a BOA vs. a Kirkby other than that? The export bikes I most commonly see here in the USA are stamped with a smaller font and longer set of numbers starting with a date, then the month/unit built scheme… are these BOA built frames?
Ian I am no expert; all I have done is to read what various people who are knowledgable have said and try and make sense of it which, frankly, is almost impossible for a person with zero engineering skills like me.
From what I can understand, it’s more to do with the type of construction rather than the place of construction. Apparently the early bikes were pop-rivetted and brazed which is highly desirable. It seems this technique was acquired from the aircraft industry so it should therefore be good, but not sufficiently good to be used today apparently.
To some extent these bikes may be highly desirable because they are early models with the kudos of being made at BoA as distinct from any advantages arising from their method of construction.
Nevertheless, the general concensus seems to be that frames which were brazed are, other things being equal, on balance better than frames which were welded. I think I am correct in saying that both types were manufactured at Kirby.
It also seems to be generally agreed that Raleigh who took over Moulton in 1967 made the best frames all of which were brazed.
There are however differences of view on just how significant the welding versus brazing issue is: some think it is significant whilst at least one person with considerable expertise and experience thinks it’s relatively insignificant.
Whatever the case may be the fact remains that many Kirby-made bicycles with welded frames are still in use after almost 50 years, so they can’t be bad.
There are a few additional points which tend to fog discussion.
First, Series 1 rear forks are susceptible to cracking and often have to be strengthened. My understanding is that most of these bikes were made at BoA; however this is a design issue rather than a construction issue.
Secondly it seems that BoA machines were better put together in that they were greased whereas grease was in short supply at Kirby. There are several accounts of BoA machines being easier to dismantle than Kirby machines because they were greased. Of course once a Kirby machine is dissembled, serviced and greased, this is no longer an issue.
I’ve therefore come to the conclusion that it probably doesn’t matter too much where it was made; that on balance brazing is better than welding but it all depends on the quality of the welding and brazing and how well the bike has been maintained and how heavy the use; and that the best made bikes were the later bikes made by Raleigh as they were brazed, well put together and incorporated design improvements which had been developed from experience.
I have three vintage Moultons: a BoA; a Kirby; and a Raleigh.
So I’m covered!
Alex… I am going to put a spanner in the works! The S Works!! These are, without doubt, the best frames ever made in F Frames. Perfect craftsmanship, proper assembly, even the paint finish seems better. I am lucky enough to have worked on a handful of these machines, also worked on a good number of Kirkby, BoA (main factory built) and Raleigh built. The Raleighs are certainly very, very good, but once you have worked a spanner over the bottom bracket, stem etc on an ‘S’ you just enjoy and observe the ease in which a properly greased, properly made sixties Moulton comes apart!
The Kirkby bikes are not all bad, I agree with Brian here, but some can take some pretty serious work to get apart… Lack of grease, bubble gum type welds – you have to remember one of the problems Moultons were bugged with was Kirkby. The bike was an immediate success and they needed to ‘up’ production pretty rapidly to cope!
I owned a Kirkby build speed, a lovely bike. This bike had been well maintained over it’s life, but all I can say from experience is that those 8 digits neatly stamped on one side are worth everything. You will see 99 Kirkby bikes to every 1 BoA in a hundred Moultons, production was much smaller- but they are always worth seeking out.
My favourites are the early pop riveted, brazed construction, the neatly lapped joint and brazed of the majority of S machines, and the later edge brazed beauties which found their way into Raleigh production with the Major and Major Deluxe series.
Above all… Enjoy what ever Moultons you own, the BoA built examples are getting very thin on the ground.. The Far Eastern fans certainly look for that all important frame number, any F frame can be made to run well with 17 inch wheels, friction dampers and such like, there are some very nice conversions out there.
Tom
Also Ian, your frames like the 4 speed etc will be nicely built BoA frames, typified by small box type stamping, 8 digits, for example my safari was such an example. One of the funny ones was the speedsix, as some frames carry a K stamp on one side. This I guess are frames which have been sent down from Kirkby for finishing, the edge brazed ones are usually a small font six digit starting with a 6… Like on Automatics, some S Stowaways etc…
As far as I am aware, the speedsix was never assembled at Kirkby, this has come up before. I can’t see those lads setting up a cyclo mech!
Tom
My yellow speedsix is an early frame with a Kirkby stamp. It was without question a frame that had cable guide holes in different locations that were brazed in on the head tube. It has a 4 digit serial number with a faint 2 and 4 barely visible in front of the other 4 numbers. It’s been welded at the seat tube/main frame joint and also has what appears to be 4 pop rivets that were brazed over, could be weld blobs that really look like rivet heads… Also brazed at the head tube with a fully enclosed metal wrap off of the main tube.
Were these frames originally set to be other models, then pulled from production at Kirkby to be sent elsewhere for paint an assembly to become speedsixes??
Ian, going back to your first post, note that there is a thread on Understanding Serial Numbers.
If it says K66 on the seat post it means that if was made in Kirby in 1966. If there is a 6 digit number on the seat post on the opposite side say, 352225, it means that the bike was made in week 35 which is in the last week in August, and it was the 2,225th bike made that week.
If there is no K6 but an 8 digit number it means that it’s a Bradford on Avon bike.
To my knowledge no-one has definitely cracked the code used by Raleigh.
AlexOk, thanks for pointing that out to me Alexander. I’ll go have a look at that serial number thread later tonight. I’m just now starting to take an interest in the serial numbers, so it will be an interesting read I’m sure. I’m pretty sure most of my collection is Kirkby built with the exception of my automatic and the US exports. Some have pop rivets, some are welded… quite a mix of techniques.
Ian, if you go into the Yahoo Moulton Forum – it’s free to join if you are not in it – someone has just posted a video of a group in American who collect British bikes. The video shows one chap talking about his speedsix and a very interesting talk it is too.
Alex… Sorry Alexander! I should have read your post before adding a new post on that Youtube link!! Interesting bike that one!
Tom
Tom, it certainly is. Also “it’s the way he tells ’em”.
He’s also got a NS.
Apparently he makes or has made 17 inch carbon rims suitable for an AM.
It seems the group he’s taking to ride British bikes, eat cake, drink tea and by the look of it, enjoy a pint!
AlexHey, thanks! I know there has to be more Moultons here in the USA, but I’m over here in Ohio, and I’m willing to bet the majority of them are all out in California. May as well be in China from where I live! 🙂 Everything is out in California. 🙁
Here’s something a little interesting on rims… I use a shop in Cincinnati called American Metal Cleaners to clean the paint and rust from my cars and bike when restoring. They do a lot of manufacturing jobs for companies and the last time I was down there, they had a basket full of aluminum rims that looked like 17′ Moulton rims. I measured and they were indeed 17″ with 28 spokes! Not sure if they would have been our width or actual 369 dimension though, but they looked pretty darn close. I asked the owner of the shop to get me some information on the customer to see what the application was and if they were going to be made available for purchase. I’ll need to follow up more on this later.
…Keep me posted Ian on the rims.. we only have so many Milremos to use… Many suffer from fatigue cracking, perhaps a repair is possible?
Tom
Will do Tom. I wasn’t in a position to really study these very well. The rims looked very nice, but they might have been a little too wide. I didn’t get that measurement. The shop owner was kind enough to measure the diameter and count the holes while the job was in production.
Hi Ian,
Your Speedsix sounds like it;s the brother of mine! It’s an early one and has a K65 stamp and it also has the first two digits missing of the serial number. I had it blasted last week and noticed the headtube has had the cable guides brazed over and then seemingly redrilled elsewhere to accommodate the mount for the shifter.
I’d thought the same as you, that Kirkby made frames had been re-purposed for Speedsixes.
I’m creating a bit of a webpage about my renovation, I’ll post a link which will have pictures once it’s got a bit more content.
MattHi Matt! Awesome! I’ll post a build thread on my restoration here as soon as I have a minute to organize some pictures. I’ve been taking some training classes for work here lately and it’s taking up all my spare time.
Hi Ian,
Alexander’s post about the BoA vs Kirkby serial numbers seems about right.
If you haven’t come across it yet, Paul Grogan’s book ‘The Classic Moulton’ is very good (there is a newish version advertised a couple of Moultoneers ago). Page 9 shows some frame differences.
My F-Frames match Paul’s diagrams:
1964 BoA – main frame joins head tube each side. 2 rivets each side & rivets at seat tube joint.
1965 Kirkby – main frame encircles head tube. One rivet each side & no rivets at seat tube joint.
During recent restoration, the BoA bike came apart easily. Inside the head tube/suspension looked ‘good as new’. Kirkby bike was rusty & dirty within; also the forks had been repaired (BoA forks are as original & perfect).
Mk2 yet to be taken apart…
Dave (in the UK – near BoA)
Oh yea, Paul’s book is mandatory reading in my house. I read it to the kids for bedtime stories.
Paul and I have have done a lot of chatting back an fourth for some time now through email. He’s a really good guy and I’ve learned a lot from him. Must admit, you Moultoneers are a pretty good bunch.
Ian if you are so familiar with this excellent book, you will have seen my name in it.?…very generous by Paul…who is an absolute gent as well as researcher, writer etc….ken
Your name was in that book?… humm, I must have missed that part! LOL!!! Just kidding. LOL… acutally, when I get to that part of the book, my kids get scared and it gives them nightmares! LOL…
Seriously though, you guys are all really good to me and I really enjoy the company. I’m kinda all alone over here in my part of the world. I’m starting to gather that some of the classic Mini owners here in the USA have one, but it’s a novelty accessory to their Mini. A conversation piece and they aren’t really into the bike. I took my speed to the British car festal last fall and no one there even knew what it was. I did bump into a guy in the parking lot what was a marketing director for Huffy in the 60’s who recognized it and spoke to me for a few minutes. I wish now that I would have asked him for his name and phone number. I’m sure I missed an opportunity to gather inside information on the marketing campaign for Moulton bikes in the USA through Huffy. Hopefully I bump into him again this year.
HAHAHA! Very funny Ian…just testing your knowledge about the excellent work….Paul was definitely the man for the job?
Have you collected all the HUFFY ephemera yet?..k
Ken, I’ve tried to collect material on the Huffy story, but I guess my detective work just isn’t all that good. Paul and I have had quite a few conversations about it and he seems to have quite a lot of knowledge on the subject already. He is an amazing Moulton detective, that’s for sure.
Yes, brochures and literature are an entirely new level of the game. I have friends who only collect literature… they don’t even have the actual machine. I had suggested to some of my friends in the Sunbeam world to start an online virtual museum displaying their collections of parts, literature, and brochures. I know one chap who only buys NOS parts for Sunbeam Alpines and Tigers. He hordes the stuff. His objective is to build a replica Rootes dealership complete with fully stocked parts department. Takes all kinds I guess!
Me personally, no. I prefer to have the machine over the literature. I like to take them apart and put them together. I love projects and the processes required to make them happen. The literature is nice to look at, but I have no real desire to own it.
Hi Ian,
I’m new to Moultons but I was around industry in the 1960s enough to comment on the situation back then. By the way, I have two Kirkby Moultons and both had been laid up for over 20 years before I disassembled them. Grease? What grease. Hacksaw, heat and a big hammer and drift finally got the back ends apart. Back in the 60s management of most large factories had lost the plot – the Unions response was to get more stroppy and morale generally declined drastically – as did quality of workmanship. My wife bought a new Mini in 1968 – one of the rear windows leaked and the floor pan started to corrode before we discovered the problem. Basically management would not talk to (or engage with, to use modern speak) the workers and motivation was low. So, was grease supplied at Kirkby? Probably, but if no one was checking, its messy stuff and who gives a damn? Whereas I suspect at BoA there was enough enthusiasm and pride in what they were doing that such practices would just not happen. It would be great to talk to someone who actually worked at Kirkby to get their slant.
But, happily, my Kirkby frames appear to be OK!Hi Nigel, That’s solid input. Thanks! Have any of you read the book “The Devils Carousel” by Jeff Torrington? Great book written around a make believe company copied off of Rootes, where Torrington once worked. It’s all about the labor unions and production mishaps involving this company. Great book and lots of laughs! Really sheds a light on the comments you made about those times.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.