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Help identifying a few bits on F-Frame
- This topic has 23 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 7 months ago by
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Hi everyone
The more I look at my bike and look at others online I seem to think mine has several additions that I don’t see on any others so I was hoping if some of the more knowledgable members might be able to shed some light on the bits that I am not sure about.
They are pretty obvious but I have circled the bits in red. Sorry about the squashed pictures I don’t know the settings for the forum.
My frame has several of these cable guides on it but I am trying to figure out what they would be used for given the current set-up of the bike with the 4 speed Sturmey Archer..
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/runkthepunk/left%20side%20cable%20guides_zpsngl9g7pc.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/runkthepunk/rear%20forks%20both%20cable%20guides_zpsdwtdtmoi.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/runkthepunk/cable%20guides%20behind%20chainring_zpstnbbyh98.jpgThe rear fork also has this hole that is threaded what is usually attached here? (to me it looks like a derailleur hanger?)
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d107/runkthepunk/rear%20forks%20threaded%20hanger_zpsmik0gthk.jpgMy thoughts are that over the 50 years a lot of people have altered the bike and added bits but maybe it’ all standard stuff and I am just mistaken, as ever though any help is appreciated.
Rob
Hi Alexander
No there arent any guides of that type on the steering tube. There are 5 of the standard ‘metal loop’ type cable guides on it. The guides have been attached very nicely and have a factory look hence why I didn’t even think about them until i started messing with the hub and braking set-up. Do you think the rear hole is for a derailleur?
That’s interesting I didn’t know they made racing versions I thought bikes with racing in mind were all custom made by the owners. (speed six apart that is) I’m just assuming my bike is made in Kirkby but it doesn’t actually have a letter K next to the 65 stamp on the seatclamp. It has a 5 digit serial on the opposite side of the clamp. Funnily enough I actually purchased and collected the bike from Bradford on Avon.
Rob
im not sure if there were racers other than the speedsixes but it does seem like something professional has been done with the welding up of the rear tube
maybe a serious amateur decided to make few modifications?
I would love to know the bikes history I bet it has had an interesting life. There are at least four paint colours on it as well , silver, luminous yellow, white and blue. Maybe if I manage to get to a moulton meet up in future one of the previous owners may pop up 🙂Hi Rob
Perhaps for some reason the metal-loop guides on the “top” tube were replaced perhaps during one of the repaint jobs.
I can see one still remaining on the bottom left-hand side of the “top” tube.
Are there any more metal-loop guides on the “top” tube or is this the only one?
If there aren’t any more it suggests that they were taken off and replaced with the new guides.
Seems a bit odd to have two different types of guide on the same frame if an original feature.
But I’m no expert.
Perhaps a previous owner tried a derailleur and to try and make it work better had the cable guides “upgraded” but only on the top tube.
Or perhaps the original metal-loop guides got damaged and replacements couldn’t be sourced. The absence of K is also interesting.
Every bike has a story, just like a house or a piece of old furniture.hi rob
don’t suppose you have a copy of paul grogan’s “the classic moulton” but they show the safari ms3 and speedsix m6 had detachable rear beams and derailliers, the stub length looks about what yours is, could be one of these modelsThanks for the input guys!
The main tube/ down tube still has the metal hoop style cable guides as well. There 4 in total with two on each side of the tube, they are pretty much directly opposite each other and I think that’s normal on all the other moultons I have looked at.
I am going to make note of all the things on the bike that may be interesting or help identify it as when I paint it I don’t want to lose any identifying marks 🙂
the stub projects 2 inches behind the seat tube on the bikes with the detachable carrier tube, my guess is it would have been plated or blanked off by the factory
just measured my stub and across the top it is 2 inches long (insert carry on style joke here 🙂 )
I don’t think i’d be lucky enough for the bike to be anything glamorous and didn’t the derailleur bikes have the flatter looking later style rear forks?Here is a link to a picture of the ex Reg Randall works racer and a standard speedsix. Note the rear mech hangers and their position also the shape of the rear drop out on the white bike. Also the angle of the stub cut. The works bike has double wire loop cable guides whilst the speedsix has plastic cable guides. https://www.flickr.com/photos/83752362@N00/6835466286/
The silver bike looks to be home modified but to a good standard.
In my opinion none of the mods are factory mods
jbthe “hanger” bit with the hole in it from the picture looks like it is cut out of one piece of plate along with the axle slot bit, if it was welded on after you would see a pretty obvious joint .can’t tell perhaps from the photo but if it is one piece this would surely indicate a factory fabricated “mod”?
This gear hanger and curved rear part of the drop out looks to be welded on near where the mud guard eye is, it looks a bit blobby!
I have only ever seen one photograph with a factory fitted rear hanger mounted adjacent to the drop out and even that had vertical drop out as do all of the factory Speedsix and S range machines.
It would not be that difficult to turn a cooking moulton into a very close replica of a Speedsix or works racer………in fact I know it has been done!
As I say Rob’s bike is a nicely customised machine but it does not look like a moulton factory modified bike.
I have been playing with moultons for the best part of thirty years and I have rebuilt well over 100 machines.
Jbhere is a link to three of my modified moultos. the yellow bike is a bitsa from about four machines running a five speed SA.
The green machine is a moulton automatic with series two rear forks and the orange machine is moulton major based special with internal cable runs and replica speedsix rear forks running a six speed cassette
https://www.flickr.com/photos/83752362@N00/7620486066/
jbhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/83752362@N00/7697254426/
the speedsixalike ready to roll
jbThanks for the detailed posts John. I think the lower gear hanger itself is the only additional bit the upper part of the rear fork seems genuine. The paint job on the bike is poor so may look like poor welding in photos. I am going to get it blasted soon so will get a proper look at these funny bits and pieces. Now to decide what colour????
guess it may well never be known whether it was factory or amateur modded, but i’d use an example when the supplier for morris minor windscreens had a delivery problem in the 50’s, the split windscreen version was born, maybe someone tried a different type of deralliur!
unlikely theory, but the bikes have been upgraded for donkeys years !
Virtually all “works” built bikes have eight digits in one line, the first two denoting year.
Check out my photos?..kenlike the photos , presumably last week? particularly the “car boot sale” type stalls, must go to the august bash!
I would suggest that the dropout has simply had an extra piece for the gear hanger added by welding, and that the weld has been dressed off nicely afterwards. I’ve done this many times myself on various bikes and if it is done well you will not see the join.
The extra braze-ons on the right side are for the derailleur. The extra braze-ons on the left side are most likely for a better quality side-pull brake (back in the day a quality caliper could have had the cable on that side) or they just might be for a left-side gear control eg for a Sturmey Archer five speed hub (although that would require a fulcrum clip on the chainstay too). I note that with fulcrum clips fitted both sides, you would have enough braze-ons to allow both derailleur and sturmey 5s to be fitted, giving (with two sprockets on the SA driver) a 10s setup.
I guess the rear end has been spread out too; a standard Series 1 would be 4.5″ OLN (~114mm) but for a derailleur 120 or 126mm would be more commonplace. If this has been done well, the dropouts will be parallel when viewed from above, but if it hasn’t, they won’t be.
cheers
My yellow speedsix frameset is waiting to be built up again – one of 2 original frames I got in the 70s secondhand from Tony Boswell in York. One went to Aynsley Brown where it lives on and this is being prepared for new wheels. Since it is relatively untouched I would be happy to send close up pic to whoever needed them as references.
In addition I have the last set of Speedsix forks made for me by the factory from all the last parts they had in late 70s/early 80s. They are unprimed but obviously brand new – with a small factory variation due to parts available. Again happy to do photo record for MBC. So not a true Speedsix then.
Hi Rob Dean,
Paul Grogan’s the Classic Moulton’ (web pages ordering from that description) is a helpful reference at any stage of refurbishment, tabulating variants of features on various models, identifying parts and attachments, with comentary on when those were introduced.Also if refinishing a frame is to be considered, ‘Mercian Cycles’ offer both an interesting range shown on their colour chart, including Flamboyant and Polychromatic finishes among others.
As well as their workshop service for frames – “A frame is primed with etch coat primer, which is allowed to air dry in the clean conditions of the finishing room before being carefully rubbed down with fine grade paper to give a first class base for the paint. We use the finest quality stove enamel paints we can obtain, these are also kinder to the Sprayers and the environment than two pack paints.”
Also bespoke matching to a sample if wanted – “We can mix colours in enamel or pearl paints to match a sample if required, we have had been asked to match clothing colours, old school ties and car colours, we’re lucky to have sprayers that are very experienced and conscientious. ”
Mine in all black is to go their way too.
All best wishes,
Colin.
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