[Christopher Gibbons]

Hi,
I’m about to embark on the restoration of my 1964 Continental.

The frame has been painted (badly) in the past with what appears to be a passable version of polychromatic blue, although the metallic content is poor compared with areas of original paint that show through on scratches/beneath old fittings…

I would therefore like to spray the frame in the original colour – any ideas about paint codes/availability?
Regards,
Chris

[Ian Spencer]

Hi Chris,

There are not paint codes available to my knowledge. The problem with older paint codes from the 60’s today is that the paints they were intended to be used with are no longer being manufactured, rendering the codes useless. There are more modern paint systems that can be used but you need to find a good area of paint to match from. These systems require color sample books and a very good eye or there is also a tool called a spectrometer that will scan the paint and produce a match. This requires a flat sample at least 6″ square and most shops will ask for 12″. The problem with the Moulton is that you can’t find an area of paint that large and the tubes make it impossible. I’ve been lucky enough to find a shop that will take the time to help me mix the Moulton colors by eye from the small samples I’ve been able to provide them.

I’ve matched the polychromatic blue by using a good sample of paint found behind the head badge. I could spray some out for you if you would like. You could then take it to your paint shop and they could scan it or mix however from my sample. do you know what type of paint you will be using? I’ve been using PPG… not sure if I can get you a formula off of this can anymore because I’ve dripped paint down it. The paint shop may be able to help though.

[Christopher Gibbons]

Hi Ian,
Thanks for the detailed response.

I’m not really sure which type of paint to use; I was going to ask the respray company to make recommendations. I am tempted to have the decals covered over by the lacquer coat – not original, I know, but will hopefully keep lettering intact for longer (currently, only traces of ‘Continental’ remain on my frame…)

It would be great if you could let me have the details of your paint – if you can get the code from the can. If not, a sample of the paint would be a great help, although perhaps first I should let the respray company have a look behind the head badge.

I took the Conti out for a quick run today – what a great bike.

All the best,
Chris

[Alexander Johnston]

Matt Dunn is an expert on paint – he works for a paint manufacturer – and he is a member.
Alex

[Ian Spencer]

Someone like Matt should be an outstanding resource to help you. You could go with a base coat/clear coat system that would give you the results you are looking for. I’m sure the company he works for is going to be able to recommend the best product there. Where I live in the USA, I have either Dupont, PPG, or Glasurit to pick from. I’m not sure what products are available in the UK. The next time I’m spraying, I can mix up a little polychromatic blue for you, but you may find that someone like Matt already has this done. If you need a sample, let me know. Matt should be able to take this and get you a match in what ever product his company is selling.

[Christopher Gibbons]

Thanks Ian – i’ll bear your kind offer in mind.

Alexander – thanks for the heads-up – i’ll send Mr Dunn a message.

All the best

[Matthew Dunn]

Well, not an expert by any means but I work for a paint company and can ask experts. Not sure there’s too much to add to Ian’s excellent response though.
I work for a relatively small but specialist company so we only supply our own products which means my knowledge of other companies products is limited.

From a UK prospective you might struggle to find a PPG supplier that would match the paint for you, something like a car body shop that has a mixing facility to make their own colours would be best, sounds like where Ian bought his from. It’s also likely to be 2 pack paint which has stuff in it that make people reluctant to use it.

The finish isn’t fresh in my mind so I’m not too sure what pigment would be used to achieve the pearlescent finish, it could be something we could make in the lab here if you can send a sample. Might be a good resource for other Moultoneers.

Sorry I can be more helpful,
Matt

[Ian Spencer]

Matt makes a good point. Most people are reluctant to use the automotive paints because it’s quite a bit more complicated than buying a can off the shelf from the hardware store. You are also required to buy a compressor, paint gun, and other tools to do the job. The paint is also expensive, I pay anywhere from 40 to 60 US dollars per quart depending on the pigments in the mix. You also need to buy catalyst, reducers, primers, etc. I paint a lot of things, including Moultons and car parts, so buying a quart will last me a while. If it’s a one time job, you are left with a lot of extra, unused paint.

On the flip side, I would encourage you to use the automotive paints and try to get the correct color match to restore your bike back to the way it was intended to look. In the sports car world, they refer to me as a “purist” because I am passionate about restoring things that way. You will get your best result with a durable, long lasting finish if you use the automotive products. I really wish I was in the UK to help out with this, but if there is any way I can help from across the pond, I’ll do it.

I will be painting my speedsix sometime here in the next couple of weeks. While I have my gun and equipment out I’ll be sure to spray out a sample of the blue paint for you. Here in the USA we have paint shops that supply the auto body shops with the paint. Sounds like the UK auto body shops may do this in house. If that is the case, you should be able to take them one of my samples and they should be able to match it for you. Might even be worth the money to simply pay them to do the job too…?

If you are going to take this job on yourself, don’t hesitate to ask me for advice.

Anyone looking for Moulton colours… I have matched:

Oyster Gray
Polychromatic Autumn Gold (US stowaway)
speedsix yellow
Ruby red – (Automatic)
Polychromatic Blue
Polychromatic Red (Burgundy)
Olive Green
Colorado Red
Polychromatic midnight blue (BMW Hyper Blue – this was a guess because I didn’t have a good sample)
Ft & Rear Carrier white – I now have a good sample to match from. Not mixed yet.

[Christopher Gibbons]

Hi Ian,

Thanks again for the input.

As far as I’m aware, most of the car body repair garages ‘mix their own’. In fact, Halfords in the UK (large retail car, bike and leisure store) will actually mix most automotive paint colours from scratch and put this in a spray can for a modest sum.

I think I’ll have the frame/forks etc., sprayed by professionals. As much as anything else, I don’t really want to get paint overspray all over the garage. There are a number of specialist bike frame restoration firms in the UK that will prep and spray a stripped frame to a good standard for circa 100GBP.

It sounds like you’ve put lots of hours into matching the Moulton paint colours – how many Moulton machines do you actually have? It would be worth cataloguing the paint colours in some way to assist future restorers – maybe this is something that could be uploaded onto the resources section of the site as a technical note? Also, aren’t the carriers just white – I had presumed RAL9010 or possibly 9016?

I tend to agree with the purist approach. From what I can gather, there is something of a movement in the UK (and possibly Europe) to try and preserve the original frame paint as much as possible. This adds to the historical relevance of the machine and having seen a few highly polished original Moulton’s, they do look great with the battle scars and the odd scratch here and there.

My Continental warrants a respray, though, because the original paint has been covered over and the drop-outs are looking a bit crusty… Someone must have ‘loved’ the bike in the past!

All the best
Chris

[Ian Spencer]

Agreed. a good library of paint matches would be a good thing to have on hand. I founded the Sunbeam Alpine Owners Club of America and one of the things we did first off was to do just that, document and create a color library. I think Moulton owners appear to have a better grasp on this than the Sunbeam folks had here in the USA. We have been pretty successful in creating a color baseline. One of our members took these colors and sprayed 100’s of color chips that could be sent out to members for the purpose of matching by their local shop or service. Just like you and I have been talking. We cataloged nearly all of the recorded Rootes colors for the entire Sunbeam line with very close accuracy. This included component as well. I’d be willing to help do the same for the Moulton line.

Yes, the carriers are white.. but “just white” is a pretty open ended description. There are thousands of tints and shades of white, so getting the correct one is what I’m after. A straight, pure white tint is way too bright in my opinion… needs to be toned down. I have a very nice carrier to use as a sample now… I’ll get it matched soon.

Right, there comes a point, in my opinion, where original/unrestored needs to be restored. don’t really know how to explain it, but I know when I see it… There is an exception to this opinion and that is when there is historical significance involved.

I currently own about 13 Moultons. I have those I am keeping and have no interest in selling and a few that I will use as trade material or sell to help me keep my hobby going. My interests are moving more towards the speedsix or S range bikes. I think I’d rather have a few of those as opposed to more of the others… 🙂

I’m a restorer at heart though. Unless a bike is in really excellent original condition, I can’t fight the urge to restore it back to original condition. One thing I’m not is a customizer or hot rodder. Purist all the way! A lot of the bikes in my collection were very rough when I got them and I have done a lot of work to bring them back.

[Matthew Dunn]

If I can stick my oar in again I offered to do what Ian has suggested a few years ago but the response was a little underwhelming; not one person got back to me about it. It’s a shame we can’t really colour match metallics at work or I’d start building up a library although it sounds like Ian’s well on the way! I’d also be happy to offer my services to UK Moultoneers if they need the frames painting, I might as well make use of the equipment while it’s there.
Ian, were you also surprised at how dark the Speedsix yellow was? I’m just renovating one right now and I had in my mind it’d be much brighter. It’s a funny colour, the original seems a bit metameric, somewhere between Pantone 108c and 109c.
Matt

[Ian Spencer]

Well, no I can’t say I was surprised… I just went with it. My speedsix had about 60% original paint, and it was pretty scratched up. I did have a couple of good spots to reference for color and I think the match looks good. Won’t really know for sure until I spray it though. Sure would be nice to be in the UK where i could compare to others that have been done. Odds of mine matching those spot on will be slim, but they should by appearance be very close. You are right though, it is a little metameric… or even translucent. Painting the white primer base will be very important to getting the correct outcome.

BTW,the metallic paint has not been a problem for me… or should I say, “my guy” who is doing the actual matching. I think those have yielded the best result so far. We had a lot of trouble with safari green though. That’s a tough one.

[Matthew Dunn]

Very true, the paint is awful, not enough applied and they seem to have been a bit stingy with the pigment, you can see the white through the yellow. I got my match from behind the head badge, it’s a good match to the colour on there now although because paint from that era was matched by eye I’m sure there’ll be quite large batch variations. The only one I’ve seen in the flesh was powder coated and seemed a bit brighter.
Metallic matching should be fine for most professional set ups, it’s just we’re not really set up for it where I work. If only we did, I’d be happy to supply paint for the cost of carriage.
Sounds like you’ve got quite an impressive collection of Moultons Ian! : O )
Matt

[Keith Hales]

I’ve often been able to find a car touch up paint that matches closely, by taking a sample into Halfords and matching by eye against the touch up paint containers on display. Once you’ve found a match, you could then buy a ready made or made to order supply, either from Halfords or on-line car paint suppliers.

[Dave Howse]

I’ve tried matching to Halfords spray cans. The main problem is that the paint chips easily. If you can get the right colour match, shot blasting + powder coating is much more durable.

[Ian Spencer]

Dave is right… rattle cans are really not the optimal way to go here. Not sure about powder coating in the UK, but here in the USA it’s been a problem getting proper color match… well, I should say, there IS NO color match. You must choose from a palate of available colors and settle on something that isn’t really right. Like Dave said though, it is very durable and the finish is great. I personally like the control I have by using automotive paints. They are durable, you can rub and buff them out and match them spot on. I can manage the process and don’t have to wait 6 months for the shop to get around to running my job.

Shot blasting is a good method to strip, but I’ve moved away from that on the main frame section and have gone to a metal dipping process. It’s NOT an acid bath type system, it’s a sodium based stripping process that removes all paint, body filler and rust. The end result is clean, fresh looking metal that is ready to paint. It also cleans the frames inside and out, not just the outside like shot blasting. I’ve discovered that Moulton frames like to rust from the inside out. Water likes to get trapped inside the seat tube and will eventually rust through where the seat tube meets the main tube.

[John Faulkner]

Interesting and informative thread here, especially when you have a couple of rear forks to try to match the original soon.
But, I want to know how you add pictures to the thread?? A couple of pics might save a couple of thousand words, to crib a phrase from a certain song.
John.

[kenneth buttterfield]

hi john…try photobucket….it is so simple that even I was posting pics within ten mins. and it is free…ken

[Ian Spencer]

Right, photobucket is a nice free way to store pictures on the web. To link to the image you will want to insert standard HTML code into your post.

[John Faulkner]

Cool. I do use Photobucket for certain things but how does it synch here on this forum!?
Maybe I missed something, but if I add a live link it just works, but no indication beforehand that it will…. I must be doing something wrong, or missing something obvious. Like HTML Iinks.
I will experiment: ) Like now.

Thanks both anyway.
No way of knowing it works without ‘posting’ it… Preview would be very nice.

[John Faulkner]

OK. Experiment worked: ) Simple as….
But a preview of the proposed post would be very nice.
No apologies for posting a sample pic of my un-messed with K65 Standard. Currently in daily use. Love the Series One machines: )

Now it’s here, what’s the official colour?
John.

[Matthew Dunn]

That’ll be Kingfisher Blue me thinks. Probably my favourite colour.
Matt

[Ian Spencer]

I’ve been collecting up old CD disks to use as paint samples. I’ll paint them up with all the different colors I’ve matched up so far and bring them along with me to BoA in September.

[lee morgan]

Hi there,
I’m new to this club and recently purchased a 1964 stoway which I’m about to restore.
I am a spray painter by trade and work as a rep for a large paint distributor in Perth Western Australia.
Modern spectrophotometers such as the Aquire X supplied by Du Pont,only require a 25mm square, flat section of paint to scan and formulate (the side of the main rail on a Moulton is wide enough for this) and can read metalics.
I have formulated the Polychromatic/ kingfisher blue for my Moulton in Du Pont Centari 610, which is a single pack base coat and requires clear coating,it could also be mixed in acrylic direct gloss if required,but,clear over base gives a much better finish.
Centari 610 is available in both the USA and UK and the usual minimum volume that can be purchased is 500ml, should be enough for two frames.
The formula in 610 for a 500ml mix of Kingfisher blue is :-
AM28 FAST BLUE HS 52.1g
AM14 COARSE ALUMINIUM 45.2g
AM13 MEDIUM COARSE ALUMINIUM 25.6g
4530S FLOP CONTROL AGENT 6.1g
AM29 LIGHT BLUE 4.7g
AM5 JET BLACK 4.0 g
AM20 VIOLET 3.3 g
BE151 C610 BINDER 329.9 g
If you take this to any Du Pont supplier they will be able to mix this in minutes for you.
I hope this is of some help. I could formulate the entire range of colours,but would need samples to do this,and Moultons are pretty thin on the ground in Perth (I have only ever seen one other than mine,and that was also blue!)
Cheers
Lee

[Tim M]

Hello,
Sorry to churn up such an old post but I have recently bought a 1965 Boa F-Frame ‘billiard cue’ deluxe in kingfisher/ polychromatic blue. The bike is mechanically excellent but the paintwork is in shabby condition and so would like to touch it up.

I have asked several pain mixers if they can mix up a can for me stating the ingredients listed by Lee Morgan above, but to no avail – they all say they don’t do Dupont products or have discontinued some of them. Can I ask if anyone has another colour match for this type of blue and where I might be able to get a can made up?
Many thanks,
Tim

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